Jaguar

17 posts

Hi, iI remember the 2.5pi well fom the very hot summer of 1976.



I was working just off the Edgware Road and we used to sit outside the "Windsor Castle" in Crawford Street, a road used by the police as a short cut back to the station.



At least twice a week, there

From Wales, 19 posts

I’d agree that the X-type doesn’t have the Kudos of a ‘proper’ Jaguar, but it’s not a terrible car, (and I think a better shape than the new S-type). It’s ironic that it took a change of ownership to Ford before model & engineering quality improved. It’s not the sort of car that would appeal that much to the pony-set, they far prefer their 4-wd’s with the better ground clearance. Most X-type estates I’ve come across seem to be company cars, salesmen, etc. I think if it was my money & I was buying a new estate I’d probably plump for the Honda Accord, the VW Passat or Audi A6 – they’re all very nice estates, the engineering quality is better and they don’t depreciate so rapidly. I’m not a huge fan of Alfa Romeo just on their engines, the cars are beautiful and I really love their estate version but everyone I know who’s owned an Alfa has generally had to fork out for an engine rebuild by 100K miles. Obviously it is a car which you’re likely to want to red-line but you can’t help thinking that they’re making the big-end shells out unsuitable metal.



As far as the Triumph 2000 that you remember is concerned, I think that colour makes a tremendous difference. BMC/ BL did conjure up some abominable colours in the ‘70’s & ‘80’s – diarrhoea yellow, powder blue, pinks, bile green, etc. There were some boring colours as well, fawn, brown, pale yellow, etc. Seeing one of these Triumphs in brown with beige velour seats – it’s a totally different car to one in midnight blue with black leatherette interior. And, of course, the fact that most of the Triumph 2000’s / 2500’s were long since scrapped would mean that most people only remember the one that was in their street at 15yrs old that was covered in rust, belched out oily smoke and broke down a lot.



Both the 2000 and 2500 engines were very reliable and reached quite high mileages without needing rebuilds, they were also used in the sports cars, the 2500 being seen in the TR6 and GT6 in a slightly more tuned form. They’d have probably done well to stick with the 2500 for the Stag instead of the disastrous V8. The 2.5PI mk1 unfortunately developed a reputation for unreliability due to problems with the Lucas fuel injection system and many were converted to carburettors. If you think of the Triumph as being a reasonably heavy estate it did well in the mid-60’s to reach 0-60mph in under 10 seconds and reach 107mph. I did tour Eire in the early 1980’s in my uncles 2000 estate, it was at a time when travelling in the South West of Ireland was like stepping back in time about 50yrs and the roads were diabolical, the estate carried 3 adults and 3 kids with luggage for a fortnight with scarcely a hiccup, although the petrol we were buying over there was not good quality and caused the car to ‘pink’. We drove up some tracks which you’d only contemplate tackling today with a 4x4 and the old girl took it all in her stride, he later changed the Triumph for a Rover SD1 when they came out and regretted selling his 2000 for years afterwards.



There’s still quite a lot of Triumph 2000’s about as they sold in big numbers, (because they were a quality car), there are a few estates about, I’d guess I see one a month on ebay but they’re much more likely to be the mk2. The mk2 is a nice shape, dash is nice, but if I run a classic car I like to have one that qualifies for the tax-exemption which puts it at ’71 or earlier. The mk1 is definitely more dated in styling and its interior. As I say my ideal would be a mk1 2.5PI, I as this is the rarest estate, in a dark colour with a Webasto. People still pay decent money for them because they are a useable classic, they can be used every day and run on a budget, they don't depreciate if they're looked after and you can insure them cheaply on a classic policy.



I once had a Vandenplas Princess which was good at killing and retaining birds on a little ledge under the rad grille but I got my mate to clean it for me.



Have a look at these and see if you're not even swayed a little....

Triumph 2500TC estate - Mk 2

Triumph 2000 estate - Mk 1

From London Bridge, 37 posts

I looked in my copy of Top Gear magazine and found Jaguar do now make an estate as you stated. An X type but it reduces the mystique of the Jaguar marque even if I have never seen one as I do not mix in them circles; horsey pony club.



As for the Triumph 2500 a car once owned by a member of my family until it was deemed un economic and traded in for a I do not know what. You now tell me they are worth thousands why is that? How many are left? Difficult for me to understand as not my favourite car when they were available. It is as if everything known about a car is forgotten once it is over 20 years old and the rose coloured specs come out. Although may be I am just too much of a realist as in the 70's people used too wax lyrical over Vauxhall's Firenza an orange one and the Victor estate car. At the time, being a clued up teenager I was not impressed. But as this was in Luton the home at the time of Vauxhall it was expected with hind sight.



An Alfa Romeo Alfetta is more my type of car or Citroen CX I saw one when it first come out and was amazed. This is that as from that era the mid 70's my next door neighbour had a Brown Triumph 2000 my dad had the Ford Consul 2500L in grey both strange colours. I told my dad the colour was ok so I was to blame for the grey Consul in some ways. It had a radiator grill which caught a bird once it was full of maggots when I cleaned it out how long had it been wedged in the grill I wonder? Are there any other cars which the grill can be used as bird cacher?

From Wales, 19 posts

Actually Jaguar do make an estate car. There were also a few XJ conversions in the 80's but, unlike the Lynx, it wasn't a pretty car.



There's an old s2 XJ 6 wheeler pick-up been trotted out on ebay a few times, it needs a good deal of work, the owners got a very inflated idea of its value and it looks pretty vile.



The rear seats do fold down in the Eventer, so as long as you don't need the rear seats for passengers, you've got a reasonably useable bit of space. The rear seats in an XJS are not much use anyway unless you have small kids.



The Triumph Estate I'd most like to get my hands on is the mk 1 version of the 2500PI, there were only about 170 of them made and very few remaining. I've seen a rusty shell selling for £800. A useable one would be £2-3K, I haven't seen a really good mk 1 but I'd expect it to go for about £5K+. Would have to be manual o/d with Webasto in brg or midnight blue. And no, I wouldn't appreciate my dogs turning the rear seats into confetti.

I take it you're not a lover of 'utility' vehicles?!

From London Bridge, 37 posts

An XJS estate is going to have a small boot I can not see teo big dogs getting in the back. As for the Triumph Estate as least the dogs could do as they liked as it has no value. As Jaguar is not really a maker of utility vehicles you have little choice. I may have seen a pick truck made out of an old XJ 6

From Wales, 19 posts

I had to look up the Ventora to remember what it looked like, yes now I remember them - bloody ugly things. I'm not aware of what their mechanical reputation was since I've never had any interest in any Vauxhall offerings as far as I can recall.



Revisiting the Vanden Plas 4 Litre R (and 3 Litre), they did make a handful of estate versions, several of which were for the Royal family. It was actually quite a handsome estate car and must have looked particularly good in its time. The BL Chairman had a 4 Litre estate which is now with an enthusiast, the royals crashed one of theirs and it's rumoured it was put into storage and remains there until today, I'm not aware of any others having survived.



Vanden Plas 3 Litre & 4 Litre R inc Estate



I am a bit of an estate fanatic as well, having 2 large dogs I find estates invaluable. I'm rather keen on picking up an XJS Lynx Eventer at some point. There have been 3 on ebay within the past year, one of the was described as being in particularly nice condition with low miles and fsh at only £6K. With the performance of the V12 I've got visions of my elderly German Shepherds being pressed against the rear screen by the G-force every time I pull away from a junction (a bit like those garfield stick-on toys). Will also be on the look out for a really nice Triumph 2500 estate once I've sorted out myself a garage. I even fancy the early Mini 'woodies' but the driving position is not comfortable enough for daily use - not if your height is over 5'8" anyway. Anyone else out there with an estate fetish?

From London Bridge, 37 posts

An interesting post. The Buick Riviera had front wheel drive with transverse mounting of its V8 power plant with a 380 gross bhp output and 120 mph top speed it is a rival for the Jaguar Mark X and it is a very interesting one. Although the specifications are rather different both were rust prone. Which to choose ? In the US it would have been the Buick the Jag is too quaint in comparison. As the Buick was not sold in the UK as Vauxhall's Big 3.3 liter Ventora saloon was made it is the UK buyers option. A very unstressed engine offering poor performance it was sold as GM's answer to the big car buyers needs. This is a very rare car as production was minute and it is today almost impossible to see one on the road. It was rare even in the late 60's; produced from 1968-1972. The Jaguar would be the obvious choice here the as a bad Jaguar the Mark X may be but it is brilliant compared to a Vauxhall Ventora.

From Wales, 19 posts

And, by the way, while we're nominating worst Jags I forgot - my least favourite has to be the 420. Nice interior, decent engine but personally I think it's the ugliest ever Jag.

From Wales, 19 posts

What was in the Mk X’s class? .. Mmm that’s a difficult one! I think firstly you’ve got to examine what the Mk X was – a very British (English) car but a car which was designed specifically for the US market, the Mk VII, Mk VIII & Mk IX (which were pretty much the same car) had been well received on the American stage.

The Mk X was designed to be a powerful, comfortable, sleek, well equipped, luxury sports saloon, the next evolutionary step within the Jaguar marque, still sporting the trademarks of the British luxury car market - abundant walnut and leather. The way in which it distinguished itself, and still does, was it’s scale. To look at similarly equipped cars of a this scale you would have to move out of the production car sphere into the world of coachbuilt automobiles, the Mercedes 600 (a peerless car with a frightening price-tag which would have bought 3 Mk X Jaguars), the Bentley S-series, Aston-Martin DB5 & Rolls-Royce Silver Cloud.



Jaguar, it has to be remembered, have always marketed themselves as providing a quality car at a very competitive price, in fact there have been several examples of Jaguar cars which the owners lucky enough to have been already on the waiting list have been able to buy a new model, drive it for a year and sell it without loss, (perhaps even a small profit). Jaguar have always distinguished themselves with their styling, have been technologically innovative but the downside of providing that for a price has been that engineering and build quality hasn’t always been what it should. I think for someone wanting to buy a luxury car there were quite a few vehicles around that would have had some appeal;



Alvis TE21. (2 dr obviously) worth mentioning due to price. Quirky, dated, uncomplicated and stood out in a crowd.

Bristol 407. Styling itself as a ‘Gentlemans conveyance’ and trading on fighter plane heritage the Bristol was handsome, well equipped, as British as the Union flag and had aluminium panels which meant that it wasn’t going to be ending up in a scrapyard next to the Mk X.

Citroen DS, 2.3Litre. Futuristic, refined, distinctive, magic-carpet ride, well equipped, desperate to be French and demonstrative of its differentness. Engines were never that good. Likely to appeal to free thinkers who didn’t want to conform to the norms of luxury car ownership.

Daimler Majestic Major. More staid and traditional styling, but sharing Jaguars management the interior was similarly comfortable and cosseting. Performance was decent and belied the cars conservative looks. Jaguar-Daimler experimented with the idea of Daimlerising the Mk X in a badge engineering project, they tried the car out with a large V8, it was felt that the much better performance of the Daimler ‘Mk X’ would hit Jaguar sales though and the Mk X remained a Jag.

Facel Vega – Facel II. Beautifully and quirkily styled with a big block Chrysler giving it remarkable performance. A piece of automotive art but the high price confined it to a selective elite with only 23 being sold in the UK, (16 of which survive). The car of choice of racing drivers, (Stirling Moss owned one), you could have bought 2 E-types and an Elan for the same money.

Ford Zephyr III, 2.5Litre. Nearing the end of it’s production run. Large, in your face, cult, like the Jag - build quality and engineering were not strong points and the tin worm ran amock.

Gordon Keeble, 5.4Litre. Elegant Guigiaro styling, a big yank V8, fibreglass body, and seriously good performance. Unfortunately the company folded after a production run of 99 – 90 survive.

Humber Super Snipe, (the original larger saloon version). Handsome, comfortable but very dated.

Mercedes-Benz 300SEL. What can you say, again in a class of its own – astonishing performance figures that still look good up against high performance cars of today. Pricey though!

Rover P5 3Litre. Prior to the excellent 3.5Litre Buick lump being adopted and the handsome Coupe design. The 3Litre was fairly pedestrian car with robust but uninspiring mechanicals and poor equipment levels in comparison.

VandenPlas Princess 4Litre R. This car interests me, I’ve occasionally thought that I might buy one but to get one in really good condition is about £3K+ and there’s always a car that I’d rather have if I’m spending the money (I sometimes have up to 4 cars on the road at a time). The car has ultra-conservative styling which is really ‘50’s, true it has the kudos of the small (military) Rolls-Royce engine but the all round performance was disappointing (if not dismal in the 3Litre version) when you look at the engine size and the cars size/ weight and compare to period Jaguars. I always see these cars as the type of cars which would have been used for ferrying Junior Government Ministers and higher ranking Civil Servants around Whitehall – but more than anything they are an ‘old mans’ car. The interior is pleasing but not electrifying and the equipment level is poor.



Perhaps it would be fairer to compare the Jaguar to the cars it was intended to compete with, the contemporary Cadillac Eldorado Biarritz, Lincoln Continental III, Chevrolet Corvair, Buick Riviera, etc. I’m not that hot on American cars I’m afraid, I love the shape of many of them but usually find their interiors a disappointment. I love the burble of a big-block V8 but driving lhd on UK roads frightens me, (I’d prefer to buy a Jensen Interceptor or CV8 to listen to a huge V.

Jaguar never did that well with the Mk X in the US, the Americans liked the Jag and it sold reasonably well but their love affair was always with Mercedes Benz and the Merc still enjoys a very high status with Americans – it is their equivalent of owning a Rolls or Aston-Martin. It’s interesting to see that the Mk X now commands a good price on the American market as a classic, (I’d say the prices I’ve seen them advertised for in the States are probably twice what they are in the UK).

Interestingly (and perhaps unfairly) the Mk X / 420G became nicknamed the ‘bookies car’, insinuating they were primarily purchased by ‘spiv’ types with more money than taste. The car also became briefly familiar in the gangster flick ‘The Krays’. I’m sure that there were far more wealthy businessmen buying these cars than bookies or gangsters, the car that I previously owned having been originally bought by a well-respected Conservative MP.

From London Bridge, 37 posts

The Ford Granada is not in the Mark X's league but then what was? I was amazed by the size of one I saw in 1971 how it went into a single garage I still find hard to believe. At that time the Ford Executive was in production another enormous car on the outsize I drove in one once it was not very impressive as they say size does not matter. Top speed would be a bit below the mark X but as perfomance was not what a car like that was bought for it hardy matters. The Mark X is more in the S class Merc league a 300SEL 3.5 although that was built to a far higher standard. Another rival of the period was the Vanden Plas R there was one in our street at the time a luxury version of the Austin Morris 3 litre with a Rolls Royce engine although hardly sporty. Any other rivals to the Mark X at the time