lee enfield- heckler and kock uk l85 a2/ sa80 a2 review

Picture courtesy of opium3.

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Accuracy	8.7/10
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Review of Lee enfield- heckler and kock uk L85 A2/ SA80 A2

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By blamonge23 on 3rd Feb 2005

blamonge23's Ratings

Value for money	10/10
Overall value	8/10
blamonge23's recommendation

Good Points

No forward assist
New Cocking handle
Stronger Metal parts

Bad Points

Barell prone to overheating
The lightweight plastic is easily damaged

General Comments

On 18 October 2001 the Armed Forces Minister, The Right Honorable Adam Ingram will officially unveil the Army's modified SA80 A2. The facility will run at the School of Infantry in Warminster.

The modification program addresses the reliability of the A2 and it is now one of, if not the most reliable 5.56mm weapon in the world.

The A2 has undergone an exhaustive series of trials. The results of the modification program will be announced for the first time at this facility.

The SA-80 family consists of two weapons: the Individual Weapon the standard rifle - and the Light Support Weapon - fitted with a bipod and capable of providing fire support. Since its introduction into service in 1986, the SA-80 has suffered from doubts - some justified, many not - about its reliability, although many of its features, particularly its accuracy and the advanced optical sight, have equally been praised. Many genuine problems have been satisfactorily resolved over the years. But it was decided in June 2000 to conduct a major modification programme, worth some £92 million, to allow the weapon to truly fulfil its potential to be one of the very best in the world.

The modified weapons, known as SA-80 A2, have been subjected to gruelling tests in a variety of the most demanding environmental conditions possible, from the deserts of Kuwait to the Arctic tundra of Alaska and the jungle of Brunei. Over 3 million rounds of ammunition have been fired. The average number of rounds between a stoppage or failure proved to be 25,200 for the Individual Weapon, and nearly 13,000 for the Light Support Weapon, which is fired in longer, more demanding bursts. Both these figures comfortably exceed the designed life of the weapon - some 10,000 rounds. And they compare very favourably with those for all other known infantry weapons.

Military personnel who have tested the modified weapons describe the improvement in performance as remarkable, and now regard it as the weapon of choice. The modified weapons will enter service with front-line units from December 2001, with a total of 200,000 being modified up until February 2006. A stock of 10,000 modified weapons is already held.

42 Comments on Review by blamonge23 for Lee enfield- heckler and kock uk L85 A2/ SA80 A2

1. Vulcanator on 22nd Nov 2005

   Despite the improvements made to this weapon one glaring omission still exists, namely the fact that this rifle cannot be operated by a left-hander. It is quite ironic that in the modern age of ambidextrous weaponry, the British Army adopts and uses a rifle that can only be operated right-handed.
   
   Unfortunately, left-handed British soldiers are now taught to shoot right-handed, will they have to learn to write right-handed next?
   
   I'll take the Austrian Steyr or the M16A2 over the SA80 anyday!

2. BomBom101 on 18th Jan 2006

   yer im a member of the air cadets and shoot single shot versions of these the l98a1 and as long as you pull the lever all the way back it won't jam but you have the odd anomalyae of a rifle and jams a lot.

3. pistolhunter on 21st Jan 2006

   Who ever wrote the reveiw should notice that it is Heckler and Koch not Kock. This is just a heads up if you didnt know that and you want to pick one up ok. Easy mistake, we all make them.

4. Hellequin on 22nd Apr 2006

   Do you work for Lee Enfield or the government by any chance? Whilst I cannot comment on the "modified" version of the SA80, I used the original for over 10 years with the British army and have to say it was pretty useless, even with meticulous care. It wouldn't stand up to knocks and being dropped, it clogged up and resulted in stoppages easily and generally wasn't "squaddie proof". I could go on and on but it'd get boring... Why did we waste lots of money on this thing when a near perfect 5.56 personal weapon already existed.... the M16.

5. Vulcanator on 27th Apr 2006

   Thank you Hellequin on your insightful comments regarding this weapon, the answer to why we adopted it is probably rooted in politics, the desire to have a "British designed" weapon overruled common sense. When it comes to small arms of the 20th Century, the British have come up as only mediocre in the design of such weaponry, When I think of the small arms carried by the British armed forces over the same time period I can think of all the superior equipment designed and manufactured by the Americans and Germans. As for the bullpup configuration of rifle, ergonamically it is a disaster especially for left handers. The MoD need to get rid of this ridiculous weapon and replace it with something better.

6. Hellequin on 29th Apr 2006

   Agree with everything you say DogsBollocks, politics will always overrule common sense it seems... Eurofighter anyone?
   I'm lefthanded too when it comes to writing but lucky enough to naturally shoot right handed for some reason, lots of my mates struggled on APWT with the SA80 due to them being "lefties". I don't care how much it's been "improved" it will never be as good as the others we've mentioned!
   Fortunately they never tried to make me write with my right hand, (might have had some comedy value tho) but I'm sure I heard that either the Soviets or the Germans tried this with their school kids at some point in history!

7. Vulcanator on 3rd May 2006

   Hellequin, I'd be curious to know if the washout rate in shooting qualification for left handers increased since the implimentation of this awful weapon compared to the SLR it replaced.

8. Hellequin on 8th May 2006

   Well I've no idea about that one dogs, I joined the wrong arm for SLR. I was Armoured Recce so initially got 9mm SMG (oh what fun!) and then the wonderful SA80... I've heard nothing but good about the old SLR though and have to say that having fired ground mounted GPMG, I wish I'd had the chance to use SLR too, if only 7.62 had been the calibre of choice!
   I know the reasons for choosing 5.56 as a calibre but it was a serious mistake to go for the SA80 instead of M16 or others... I take it you're one of the left handers who suffered?

9. Vulcanator on 8th May 2006

   Hellequin, I actually did not serve in the Army but I owned an SLR on a firearm certificate in the mid 80's when the infernal SA80 came out. I can certainly attest to what a wonderful rifle my SLR was. It was a shame I had to surrender it after the Huungerford massacre. I am now glad I live in the US, a climate much more amenable to civilian gun ownership, I look forward in the near future when I can procure an AR15 to compliment the Browining Hi-Power and Colt Commander I now currently possess and carry. In regards to the poor squaddies who have to learn to shoot right handed-they have my sympathies, perhaps common sense will prevail in the future when the SA80 gets replaced-hopefully.

10. Hellequin on 23rd May 2006

    Hi again Dogs... I have to say you're definitely better off in the US for enjoying any sort of shooting activity. It's becoming increasingly difficult here, I'm a member of LERA (LeeEnfieldRifleAssociation) and the only place I really get to shoot is Bisley which is nearly 3hours away. Even legal limit air rifles are coming under more and more scrutiny! I think the government had to be seen to be doing something after Hungerford and even more so Dunblane, but I still think they went about it the wrong way. However thats a whole new topic that could keep us going for weeks! Happy shooting mate, you're in the best place to enjoy it!

11. Vulcanator on 23rd May 2006

    Hellequin, thank you for your comments, I weep for the shooting community in the UK.

12. Superduke on 26th May 2006

    It sounds as if even the ubiquitous AK/AKM rifle will outperform the SA80. And doesn't the SA80 look like a toy next to a Guardsman on sentry duty? I would give them the SLR. . .

13. The Farmer on 31st May 2006

    Well you all go on about the M16 being the best in the world etc well the M16 when it first came out around the time of the vietnam war was even worse than the original SA80, there was frequent incidents of the stock falling off and the weapon jamming. The M16 has been out for nearly 50 years so its bound to have more experience and anyway the SA80A2 was tried and tested by the Royal Marines. The UK Govt could easily just of bought the M16 or M4 but what you people forget is that the SA80 created and secured British jobs.

14. Hellequin on 1st Jun 2006

    I haven't forgotten that buying the SA80 secured British jobs at all, that was a great comfort to me as I used this unreliable rifle in various trouble spots... As for the fact that the M16 was unreliable too when it first appeared, that may be, but it isn't now. The SA80 is still far from perfect (ask our special forces which they prefer, and yes I HAVE worked with them) and my point is this- Should we really still be expecting our forces to trust this thing just to protect someone's job back in the UK? I think the priorities have been mixed up a little somewhere...

15. Vulcanator on 2nd Jun 2006

    Hellequin, Great minds think alike!, look at my comments to The Farmers review if the SA80. The Censors on Reviewcentre have changed my username, shame.

16. Superduke on 3rd Jun 2006

    Well gents,how does the SA80 measure up against the FAMAS,Steyr AUG,or even the Galil?I reckon one of us has some answers.

17. Vulcanator on 5th Jun 2006

    Superduke, Back in the 80's when the SA80 came out, the Australian army were reviewing what rifle their infantryman should carry. Normally they tended to go in lockstep with the British Army but it was between the Steyr and the SA80. Guess what? They picked the Steyr AUG - I suspect they are not disappointed.

18. The Farmer on 5th Jun 2006

    The Royal Marines have tested it and they use it and give it the thumbs up and i would listen to a Royal Marine before i'd listen to some one in the army or the inferior SAS!

19. Vulcanator on 6th Jun 2006

    Mr Farmer, There is no need to disparage the British Army or the SAS, I hold all the Armed forces of the UK in the highest esteem, it is most regretful that the top brass have deemed to equip them with an inferior battle rifle. I'm quite sure that if left to the rank and file soldier or marine to determine his weapon of choice, the SA80 would not be it!

20. Hellequin on 6th Jun 2006

    Not really interested in which part of the armed forces you think is best Farmer, the discussion is on the rifle that no other country wants to buy.... wonder why they don't??

21. The Farmer on 7th Jun 2006

    The SA80 A2 is by far the great assault rifle ever made. Thank God for BAE and H&K.

22. Superduke on 8th Jun 2006

    Hey Farmer, no need to have a pop at Tommy Atkins, he is better than the suits who send him into theatres of war to make do and mend. . .

23. wingnutter on 9th Jun 2006

    Nice discussion chaps! I myself have not served in the armed forces but do a lot of hunting using high powered rifles and semi-auto rifles too. From experience with those particular weapons there is nothing worse when you get a jam when taking a shot and it always seems to be at the most crucial time. I have 2 good friends in the 42 and 45 commandos and they use the sa80 a2. Both have different opinions, USELESS and MINT! I think a weapon is a personal thing so why not give the lads the options. If they wana use the sa80 then fine but if they don't the m16 can be built. Also its amazing no one has mentioned the most exported weapon of all time the ak47-74. But like you say politics! Personally if I was in the Army I would want the m16. Just seems like the correct weapon.

24. blamonge23 on 19th Jun 2006

    It's rather obvious that many people feel the SA80 is an inadequate weapon! It's true however the new version is on par with many high quality existing assault rifles. As much as I feel it is necessary for our armed forces to use a weapon of individual nature - it's not that hard to make one that works! Then again its the 'suits' who decide what happens and who shoots what - it's just a shame it's the soldiers of the army being let down!

25. deadeyedick on 27th Jul 2006

    I think the SA80 is much improved, its very accurate and doesn't jam much at all with the improvements. But I just can't get along with it, I would like to try the G36, or the STEYR AUG. I tried an M16 which was nice but its abit too long for my liking. Perhaps the new M4 would be a good choice?

26. blamonge23 on 22nd Aug 2006

    Just some info!
    
    No there are 8 magazines for the SA80 A1 and A2 there are two new H+K magazines for the SA80 A2 one is for live rounds and the other is specifically for blank rounds.
    
    Magazines include:
    
    RG magazine
    ACL magazine
    Colt magazines in 20-30-50 round capacities.
    Adventureline magazines
    The Sterling Magazine
    H+K Live magazine
    H+K Blank magazine
    C-Mag has 2 barrels either side ideal for use with LSW's capacity 100 rounds
    
    extra info:
    
    Q: What is the SA80 A2 ?
    A: This is the name given to the modified version of the Enfield Weapons System introduced in 1986.
    Q: What has been modified ?
    A: The following have been modified :
    
    1. Breech block.
    2. Breech bolt.
    3. Cartridge extractor.
    4. Cartridge ejector.
    5. Recoil springs.
    6. Extractor spring.
    7. Firing pin.
    8. Cocking handle.
    9. Magazine. ( Replaced totally with H+K all steel version.)
    10. Gas plug and cylinder.
    11. Hammer.
    12. Barrel extention. (LSW.)
    13. Barrel. (LSW.)
    
    Not to mention the 6 L85 variants:
    
    SA08 A1 + A2
    LSW
    Carbine with LSW foregrip Known as the SA80 A2K or L22 A1 (for tankies)
    Carbine with LSW rear pistol grip
    The Cadet GP
    and the now non existant SA80 no.43

27. blamonge23 on 22nd Aug 2006

    Abit more info!
    
    for all those who nock the SA80!
    
    Taken from Wikipedia Article
    
    In March 2005, the L85A2 was put through its paces against the M16, M4, AK-101, FAMAS G2 and G36E modern rifles. It outperformed all of them in accuracy (even without the SUSATs), reload speed (physically changing magazine on the move and static) and usability in urban and close-quarters combat (because of its shorter overall length and the ability to affix a bayonet). A2 upgraded versions also have a higher muzzle velocity. The AK-101 won reliability on multiple terrain, weather and climatic scenarios. The ranks in the test were:
    
    1) SA80
    2) G36E
    3) M16 family
    4) AK-101
    5) FAMAS G2
    
    :P

28. Vulcanator on 23rd Aug 2006

    Like to see the test redone with only left handed shooters!

29. hogalog on 10th Dec 2006

    I am not in the armed forces due too medical grounds, i did try get into the raf regiment. However, i did fire the SA80, the old version, with the air cadets. It jammed a couple of times, and yes it couldn't be used by a left hander. They say the reliability problems etc have been solved so too enable it's use left handed, why not just do the modification that occured too a 14 year old air cadet.... manufacture some kind of deflector to be fitted too the ejection port, that would deflect ejected shells downwards, away from the shooters face? Obviously, i'm just a mere working class brit with a comprehensive school education, surely the designers with all they're expertese must have come up with this idea too?

30. Vulcanator on 11th Dec 2006

    The only problem with an ejected case deflector on the SA80 is the fact that the ejection port is still very close to the shooters face and would probably have little effect, also you may still have some of the gas from the firing cycle to contend with also.
    
    The working parts should have been designed for left hand conversion by the user, ala the Styer AUG.

31. blamonge23 on 11th Dec 2006

    I can't really see any reson for there not being a left handed version of this weapon. It would be a dead simple reverse of what is there. I did once meet an officer who had such a weapon, which had been customised by a unit armourer by inverting the bolt and cutting a hole in the left side. God knows how he managed it but would be a good example.

32. hogalog on 12th Dec 2006

    surely from a combat point of view the weapon should be fireable from both shoulders, for shooting round corners etc? Therefore a straightforward ejection port on the left hand side would just have the same problem?

33. Vulcanator on 13th Dec 2006

    Hogalog,
    
    Even as currently designed the "bullpup' configuration does not make this rifle the best for firing round corners if you decide to fire it left handed although I believe it can be done. Any squaddies just back from Iraq care to comment?

34. blamonge23 on 14th Dec 2006

    It seems the only real solution to the problem would be straight out the bottom, but then the magazine is in the way! dohh

35. deadeyedick on 16th Dec 2006

    They could adopt the front ejection system, where the empty rounds are ejected into a tunnel, and then with other empty rounds pushing the older empty's, they fall out of a hole in the front of the stock. There's plenty of room for that I think! They just need to think about it. Until then though, I don't think the British army are going to be much effected if they don't have any left handers in their ranks, do you?

36. blamonge23 on 18th Dec 2006

    Theres a new combat system out that allows soldiers to look around corners with a camera on the rifle and a headset attached to a hemet. I can't remember the name but this system would be usless if the weapon can't be fired left handed round a corner without getting a face full of brass. As well it would be a complete waste of money that could be better spent on a whole new weapon and training. A point made earlier that it would be expensive and difficult to re train the whole army, unless the basic operation is kept the same, obviousley there would be no real change just basic handling would be different. Good idea with the foreward ejection system!

37. deadeyedick on 18th Dec 2006

    Also, why not make the empty's fall out of the hand grip? It's baisically in the right place, Next time I'm holding an LSW I will look at it too see if this isn't just mindless gabble from me :D

38. blamonge23 on 19th Dec 2006

    Any downward ejection would be alot safer than sidewards both to the user and anyone around him. Empty cases could also drop out between the pistol grip and magazine?

39. stewmci02 on 8th Jan 2007

    Hope you don't mind civvy intervening. My experience is that the SA80 A2 should be scrapped for the HK G36 or a similar quality weapon. Reason being that if there is a lack of confidence in the weapon, can front line soldiers be expected to carry out their job for fear of a stoppage at the critical moment (nothing ever goes wrong when you are not under pressure)? It has done its job, and a lot of soldiers owe their life to it... I just dread to think how sad it would be if any owe their loss of life to it.

40. blamonge23 on 16th Jan 2007

    I think we're all in agreement that the SA80 should be scrapped, but it ain't all that bad. Reminds me of a story I read in Soldier magazine, where a convoy came under attack from a roadside bomb. One soldier owes his life to his SA80 that stopped a piece of shrapnel from hitting his face. If only the the weapon still worked after the incident!

41. eddiereme on 12th Mar 2007

    I've served in the active theatres with both the A1 and the A2 along with a few other weapons systems, so i can speak for the actual quality of the revised L85 IW.
    
    In short it's a damn site better, stoppages are rare to never assuming your drills are correct. Mags are a far nicer material and fit with less hassle and rattle.
    Cleaning it is far far better thanks to the blacked out working parts - only need oiling and wiping off to clear of most residue.
    
    The original was a lemon, that much is clear, though for so long as you cleaned it properly and always always oiled it properly it worked out fine for the most part [it only jammed twice on me in operations, and once was my fault - incredible how well that teaches you to drill properly]
    
    The new version is a fine weapon, and far studier than the original series. I've had mine on the line in action and i've no worries trusting it to look after me so long as its looked after.

42. blamonge23 on 12th Mar 2007

    Fair comment
    
    'it'll look after you if you look after it.'' i swear that counts for boots too....

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